Curse

Guild-Hall Messenger · Aug 03, 2005, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sammiel

Really I think the best option would be to slash the faction cost down a bit and up some of the rewards for non-GvG play. Probably a good compromise would be doubling arena awards and making the HoH rewards triple what they are currently. Along with that probably halving most of the costs and reducing elite costs to a thid would be enough.

Realistically I don't think you ever would need to shoot for having all the skills unlocked as a PvPer. Rather, you would want a bank with enough points to buy a new build outright. Discounting runes/mods, this currently requires about (1k * 7 + 3k) 10,000 faction points. That represents about 30 or so guild matches in the worst case. Which I think we all agree is too much. Modifying it as I proposed would drop it to (.5k * 7 + 1k) 4.5k. Which is a more reasonable 12-13 matches or less depending on rewards. Now the bulk of those skills, if you were simply going for unlocks, would be non-elites and the many could be gotten by LA, which is a pretty short commitment, even doing it with 3 characters to get the basic skills for all 6 classes. Also, the numbers above are dependent on a player not having ANY of the skills unlocked. Over time the cost would drop down signifigantly as the player fills out the normal skills. Even just grinding the normal skills out isn't too horrendous. With SoCs and just buying skills I think a player can get the bulk on non-elites by Sanctum Cay. I think that would be a fairly reasonable tweak, at least for unlocks. If need be the numbers could be tweaked somewhat, but I donno that as drastic a reduction as 1/10 is needed.

yah for good guilds the requirement for skill unlocks isnt as bad they will win more, more faction, and usually have alpha players that know good builds from bad.

I think new players really need the acces to more skills to catch up with alpha players instead of becoming fustrated.

With access to skills they can actually learn to play, and with easy access to skills it will not be so bad if 2-3 of them dont play that much, because they can save up a pool of 8-12 factions worth of skills to unload if needed...

but for all this to happen Faction needs to drop A LOT more then you would imagine.

6 skills an hour on average is very conservative

I think my 25x 15x and 10x where pretty accurate though to rejuvinate PVP.

But I would also like to see some changes to PVE skill acquisition... so no one is left behind.

and also an addition of replayable PVE maps like outlined above along with changes to PVP maps...

A.net needs to realize they need to address these concerns, and that making a good expansion is not just enough, they need to help out with the original game a little more ;\.

Guild-Hall Messenger · Aug 03, 2005, 05:03 PM // 17:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

I just had visions of a guild training yard with UAS available only in in-guild training battles.

Best of both worlds. Train with all the skills to find what works for you, but to use them in real battles you need to go earn them somehow.

Thoughts?

we have been asking for a guild training or intra scrimmage training ground for a long long time... maybe A.net will do it sometime..

Zaklex · Aug 03, 2005, 05:44 PM // 17:44

I won't say much, except that the former Alpha testers know damn well what A.net is working on, and part of their frustration is that they know and can't say anything and A.net chooses to not release to the masses what is being worked on, which is their choice.

And before you say anything, I don't participate in PvP right now for my own reasons, not because it's broken or everyone uses the same skills, but because even after almost 1000 hrs over 7 characters with 2 having completed the game on 2 accounts I don't have the skills I want. Now you're going to say, I'm contradicting myself, let me explain, the reason I don't have the skills I want is not because it's a hassle or lack of skill points (I have enough of those), or exp(ditto), it's because I choose at the moment to not take my time to acquire them. When I'm good and ready to get the skills I want, then I will go out and get them. As for Runes, mods, max dam weapons, etc., if I find them, I find them, to me they aren't that important, but then our guild isn't interested in being #1, just to have fun and compete(which we could do now if we wanted).

Sagius Truthbarron · Aug 03, 2005, 06:14 PM // 18:14

You people should listen to Alex. Clearly hardly any of you are or can.

Why should they stop working on alot of projects so that 100 out of 400,000 people can have their cake and eat it too? The impatience doesn't make sence. If you don't want to grind so that you can have an endless expirimentation rate for builds then don't.

Just buy the skills you want and read the describtions for others. Want that skill? Go out and get it. Want that rune? Go out and get it.

You don't need every single one. In time things may come around to allow you to UAS faster. Untill then why don't you set the game down and go grind kills or exp in another game? You don't really need to play the same game day in and day out for three months.

Don't have another game? Do PvP. You don't need every skill or rune unlocked to keep up well in PvP. The trends are relavent and cost effective enough, aren't they?

Phades · Aug 03, 2005, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaklex

I won't say much, except that the former Alpha testers know damn well what A.net is working on, and part of their frustration is that they know and can't say anything and A.net chooses to not release to the masses what is being worked on, which is their choice.

And before you say anything, I don't participate in PvP right now for my own reasons, not because it's broken or everyone uses the same skills, but because even after almost 1000 hrs over 7 characters with 2 having completed the game on 2 accounts I don't have the skills I want. Now you're going to say, I'm contradicting myself, let me explain, the reason I don't have the skills I want is not because it's a hassle or lack of skill points (I have enough of those), or exp(ditto), it's because I choose at the moment to not take my time to acquire them. When I'm good and ready to get the skills I want, then I will go out and get them. As for Runes, mods, max dam weapons, etc., if I find them, I find them, to me they aren't that important, but then our guild isn't interested in being #1, just to have fun and compete(which we could do now if we wanted).

Forgive me if i read this and get that you are becoming disinterested in playing the game. Wanting something, but unwilling to spend the time to aquire it, seems to indicate a problem outside the point of the issue. Opening up by suggesting an underlying frustration didnt help either.

Guild-Hall Messenger · Aug 03, 2005, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sagius Truthbarron

You people should listen to Alex. Clearly hardly any of you are or can.

Why should they stop working on alot of projects so that 100 out of 400,000 people can have their cake and eat it too? The impatience doesn't make sence. If you don't want to grind so that you can have an endless expirimentation rate for builds then don't.

Just buy the skills you want and read the describtions for others. Want that skill? Go out and get it. Want that rune? Go out and get it.

You don't need every single one. In time things may come around to allow you to UAS faster. Untill then why don't you set the game down and go grind kills or exp in another game? You don't really need to play the same game day in and day out for three months.

Don't have another game? Do PvP. You don't need every skill or rune unlocked to keep up well in PvP. The trends are relavent and cost effective enough, aren't they?

The fixes we are asking can happen in litterally 2 hours of work by one person.

This is fact, it is just changing of variables. The reason it is not implemented is because A.net does not care.

Reading a description and knowing how a skill actually works is very different. For instance Channeling says it steals energy but infact only drains it.

we havent just set the game down, a lot of players have thrown the game away, we obviously do not want this to happen

We would go out and get it, but it takes an hour about per skill, endless rezoning to get an elite, and hours of PVP for an elite or even for a normal skill.

There is timeframes, and there are reasonable timeframes.

There timeframe is telling someone to swim to hawaii, It is possible, but the time is forever.

We are mainly the PVP crowd, we are getting tired of not having the ability to play with builds we want, we are tired of losing to teams with builds we can not counter, we are tired of not being able to play mesmer because we havent beaten the game with one. We want some flexibility and variance in our gameplay, not playing the same premade Over and over and over.

We want to see things besides AIR, SMITE, and SPIRIT, in tombs.

Also I have heard numerous complaints from PVE players...

how long does it take to get one Ecto?

How many times do you have to go through UW and FOW to get a 15k armor set now?

How much choice do you really have at beginning levels for character uniqueness? When 50% of the skills are only available after lvl 20?

Sammiel · Aug 03, 2005, 06:39 PM // 18:39

To be fair, in a released software product, there is never a 2 hour change. Things need to be authorized, coded, merged into the existing code base, tested, tested some more, verified, and then patched in. So even if the 'coded' part is short, the other parts may or may not be. Also, when dealing with things like balance its likely that design decisions are what would take even more time. Should faction be reduced by a factor of 2-4 times as I proposed, or 10-25 times like you proposed? Deciding things like that take time. And rushing things out willy nilly has the potential to make things far worse. Also, it takes far less time than that to get skills, and I would even agree that skill unlocking is currently still a PITA. A good FoW run is worth a pretty healthy chunk of exp for SPs, all the normal skills are purchasable through a skill merchant, and most elites aren't terribly difficult to get, though some are a pain. Also, to be fair, you almost never need all skills unlocked, so some can be fairly safely discarded if need be.

The PvE complaints about Ecto are pretty baseless IMO. Its something to strive for that has no effect on actual gameplay mechanics. So who really cares how long it takes to get 15 ecto. Its purely a vanity item, offering no power advantage. Its a way to have the 'lotto' like effect of items in a more traditional way without having said items effect PvP. And actually I think most of the non-elite skills are available before 20, its just they aren't all purchasable. Some require a SoC to grab. But I'm not totally sure on that since I don't think anyone has taken the time to chart pre-Ascension boss skills.

One complaint in PvE that may be valid is the ease in which one classes skills (Monk) allows you to farm. Also, the main storyline sucks, but then again so do seemingly most action-adventure type games

D2, I'm looking at you.

Meonen · Aug 03, 2005, 06:41 PM // 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xellos

I want to know if the dev team has anyone as zealous as guys like Bill Roper then, and actually compete in PVP or take part in the game world.

Lots of them play. I only know of two that take part in competitive PvP. Although one of them quit because they hated the grind. The other one... don't really see him around much either.

Aracos79 · Aug 03, 2005, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Wow... I have to say I was very pleasently surprised to log on this morning and find this topic. After yesterday's ugly flamewar, I was afraid a positive discussion was impossible. Thanks for sticking up for the community.

Skimming through most of the stuff here, I think the number one point that has to be made is that the PvEers need to be a bit more understanding of what's going on in the PvP community. After seeing all the comments, and skimming the threads at Guild-Hall, I think it's fair to say we are not just dealing with "100 spoiled children". These are some deep seeded and long standing disputes that the PvP community has. And why is a faster unlocking system a threat to PvE players? I used to think so... but I stopped and asked myself, why? I don't have to use it. Let them play their way, and I'll play mine. So give them more faction (one possibility), I don't see how PvE players could have a problem with that.

Monitoring by ANet definately needs to be increased though. I liken the PvP in this game a lot to a card game like Magic. Skills are like cards. If a skill is overpowering and unbalanced, the governing body needs to be monitoring and make adjustments as needed. This "hands off" approach by ANet is doing the game no favors. Unforseen combos always creep up, and when they do they need to be addressed. No one can catch everything.

Finally, how about some more play modes for PvP? The sky is the limit there and for some reason ANet is content to putter down the beach like the Wright Brothers. My favorite pure PvP game is UT2004... talk about play modes, you name it they got it. There's no reason ANet couldn't broaden the options for PvP experiences.

MSecorsky · Aug 03, 2005, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guild-Hall Messenger

change variable 1000 to 100

done.

As a programmer, let me tell you that what often seems simple changes can take a couple weeks to implement, even if the overall coding is a few minutes. Far too many projects have taken longer to document than to code. Then there's unit testing, systems testing, integration testing, migration from (at the minimum) development to test to production... there's finding who has time available to work on that piece and assigning it to them (which means it's another thing on their plate, not the only thing...)

I know it sounds like removing a zero, please believe that it isn't.

Sagius Truthbarron · Aug 03, 2005, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guild-Hall Messenger

The fixes we are asking can happen in litterally 2 hours of work by one person.

This is fact, it is just changing of variables. The reason it is not implemented is because A.net does not care.

Reading a description and knowing how a skill actually works is very different. For instance Channeling says it steals energy but infact only drains it.

we havent just set the game down, a lot of players have thrown the game away, we obviously do not want this to happen

We would go out and get it, but it takes an hour about per skill, endless rezoning to get an elite, and hours of PVP for an elite or even for a normal skill.

There is timeframes, and there are reasonable timeframes.

There timeframe is telling someone to swim to hawaii, It is possible, but the time is forever.

We are mainly the PVP crowd, we are getting tired of not having the ability to play with builds we want, we are tired of losing to teams with builds we can not counter, we are tired of not being able to play mesmer because we havent beaten the game with one. We want some flexibility and variance in our gameplay, not playing the same premade Over and over and over.

We want to see things besides AIR, SMITE, and SPIRIT, in tombs.

Also I have heard numerous complaints from PVE players...

how long does it take to get one Ecto?

How many times do you have to go through UW and FOW to get a 15k armor set now?

How much choice do you really have at beginning levels for character uniqueness? When 50% of the skills are only available after lvl 20?

You think it takes only 2 hours to fix things that people from both realms of extreme PvE and PvP, have been whining about for the past 3 months and to get it in the exact way that EVERYONE wants?

15k armor is not necisary. It's just there to waste your money. That's why they call it a "Gold Sink" becuase it's like buying a sink made of gold for your kitchen or bathroom. There's no point to it.

They can't just make these things appear out of thin air. Only the most extreme PvPers (The ones who actually through their games away and gave Anet 50$ for something they didn't like) want AUS or USA or UAS or whatever. It takes some time deciding and confirming with the company to see what gets put in and taken out of the game.

Just becuase BF 1942 Pirates Mod takes 2 hours for the modder to fix a bug where if you slash an ammo kit in a ship too many times it sinks doesn't mean major corporations work that way too. Not everyone works out of their garage.

KuTeBaka · Aug 03, 2005, 06:53 PM // 18:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guild-Hall Messenger

change variable 1000 to 100

done.

its not that easy, you can't just type in variable XX = 1000, and itll be done. no, you have to remake a huge part of the game.

Xellos · Aug 03, 2005, 06:54 PM // 18:54

Replayability sucks in PVE, that is a fact. Currently your best way to farm skill points if you don't farm faction is to go UW/FoW followed by farming dessert/southern shiverpeaks. How is that fun? Your FARMING. Hell if there was a way to make it so that a lvl 20 can go in The Great Northern Wall and gain a decent amount of EXP, that makes it much more fun. Replayability folks, not more crap content that gets shoved aside in a couple of months.

As for people leaving, stop argueing about facts and what not. The fact is, looking at the guild vs guild LADDER, nearly 90% of the first page-second pagers are identical players and such. The GvG scene isn't dead, but it isn't thriving either. Rank 1 is dead, Sissy Boys is now Bravo Squad, War Machine isn't exactly active, Thunder Catz and Team Union are active ( YAY!!! ), Limit Break and Limit Break War are the same obviously; so one of them is dead, Ward vs Noobz is aliveish, Nu is dead, and who the heck is Toon Town again? (great game!) p0 and n0 and SNA don't exactly move alot, and we can't even factor in the koreans. So just doing random counts, 8/20 guilds are either smurfed or dead on the first page. While that isn't WOAH WE ARE SCREWED, it's a significant amount which indicates something is wrong. It's almost as bad as that time in Wc3 where Showtime took all 3 number one spots in Asia. Except that time, there was actually alot of players and competition!

Silmor · Aug 03, 2005, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sagius Truthbarron

You think it takes only 2 hours to fix things that people from both realms of extreme PvE and PvP, have been whining about for the past 3 months and to get it in the exact way that EVERYONE wants?

That's not what he suggests. He suggests a simple change they can implement to improve the game for many people, whilst not taking anything away from the rest, and this change could be implemented in under two hours.

Quote:

15k armor is not necisary. It's just there to waste your money. That's why they call it a "Gold Sink" becuase it's like buying a sink made of gold for your kitchen or bathroom. There's no point to it.

The term 'gold sink' is used for cases where they have ways of draining (sink) money (gold) from the economy to combat inflation.
And sure, getting Fissure armour is a challenge, and I sort of agree it should be stupidly difficult to get, as a true PvE grinding reward. But it is most certainly grind, and coming from a company that claims to work against grind that's sort of odd.

Quote:

They can't just make these things appear out of thin air. Only the most extreme PvPers (The ones who actually through their games away and gave Anet 50$ for something they didn't like) want AUS or USA or UAS or whatever. It takes some time deciding and confirming with the company to see what gets put in and taken out of the game.

I don't think you comprehend what's at play really. The most vocal PvP'ers want a change, they want to see progress. As it has been said, UAS is NOT the focus of this thread in the first place, but people seem to love bringing it up as a straw man argument as to why PvP'ers can be ignored for being unreasonable. The call for UAS is a manifestation of a dissatisfaction among PvP'ers, which signifies a larger underlying problem: forced grind, 'preparing to have fun'.

Quote:

Just becuase BF 1942 Pirates Mod takes 2 hours for the modder to fix a bug where if you slash an ammo kit in a ship too many times it sinks doesn't mean major corporations work that way too. Not everyone works out of their garage.

A BF 1942 Pirates Mod modder has nothing to lose. ArenaNet has customers to lose, if anything they should be more anxious to address issues. The problem is identifying and acknowledging those issues, and if you don't take your userbase seriously, that's going to be pretty damn hard. Look at how fast something like the Augury Rock exploit was fixed: if need be, patches can most certainly come out fast.

Zaklex · Aug 03, 2005, 07:12 PM // 19:12

Everyone would be please if A.net told us what they were working on so we actually knew what was being done, but remember, it is their choice on what they tell the community. Most business do not announce works in progress in the event that things don't pan out and they never come to fruition(vaporware anyone). I belive this is the case here with balance issues, that and changing one skill cascades down to many other skills so that you have more than one thing to work on, not exactly a speedy process, considering the code that needs to be changed, debugged, tested, changed again, and repeat until it's reasonably certain you have the effect that you want without screwing up something else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Forgive me if i read this and get that you are becoming disinterested in playing the game. Wanting something, but unwilling to spend the time to aquire it, seems to indicate a problem outside the point of the issue. Opening up by suggesting an underlying frustration didnt help either.

Work interupted this post so it is now out of order.

Most likely I worded my post incorrectly, I'm not a great wordsmith so what I intend to say doesn't always translate onto paper. Disinterested, no, far from it, I just started my 7th character a couple of days ago, trying something different. I still log on and play for 2 -3 hours almost every night. Reread my post, I'm not frustrated, it's the hardcore PvP(and former Alpha) players that are frustrated, they have that right, but they also know the NDA doesn't end when you leave/end your time in testing. Unfortunately they don't appear to be creative enough to say something without really saying something, which I do all of the time to my guild, it drives them nuts. And I'm not unwilling to spend the time to acquire things, it's not on my agenda right now, if I feel like capping an Elite or some other skill not offered via a quest or purchase then I go out and get it, but right now I have more fun helping some people that I've met in-game, and that is what this game is about: fun(which you can have doing PvP too).

Sagius Truthbarron · Aug 03, 2005, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silmor

A BF 1942 Pirates Mod modder has nothing to lose. ArenaNet has customers to lose, if anything they should be more anxious to address issues. The problem is identifying and acknowledging those issues, and if you don't take your userbase seriously, that's going to be pretty damn hard. Look at how fast something like the Augury Rock exploit was fixed: if need be, patches can most certainly come out fast.

Anet adresses issues again and again, yet no one listens. The improvement they want doesn't come in 3 weeks? They leave the game. I played a game where we waited for new updates for 4 months and more. What did we get? Poetry contests with no adressing at all the real issues. If I got through that I can get through 2 weeks of no update. So can you.

What I'm trying to get at with the Pirate's mod is that major corperations DO NOT work like: "Hey... LETS CHANGE STUFF! I READ A GOOD SUGGESTION ON A FORUM!! Some guy said that we should bring the cost of elite spells to 300 faction!!"

Like I said, not all players want all skills unlocked. Alot of players don't really care; I don't. What I'm saying is:

_~_~_~_Just wait for Anet to make their move. They'll decide what's best for their game, not Standard Ai, not Sissy Boys, not Baron Von LAIntDis1. _~_~_~_

Augury Rock was an exploit. PvP/PvE "grind" is not. There wouldn't need to be any "Hey... Would it be a good idea to take away this exploit that can give players 1 million exp per hour?"

By the way, I know that not all PvPers want UAS, but I was talking about the most extreme PvPers, wasn't I? I'de look in the mirror before calling someone a fanatic of anything. I PvP just as much as I PvE.

I'm not saying that there are no problems! I'm saying that untill they are fixed there is NO POINT COMPLAINING ABOUT IT; It's not going to get done faster. less spam on the forums.

Loviatar · Aug 03, 2005, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaklex

but right now I have more fun helping some people that I've met in-game, and that is what this game is about: fun(which you can have doing PvP too).

are you allowed under the NDA to hint if you have a vague possible opinion that the middle of the road (pve leaning) casual gamer might like what is on the horizion?

if the question is to direct i truly will understand but a hint would be nice

thank you for helping the newcomers

Kaylee Ann · Aug 03, 2005, 07:33 PM // 19:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silmor

Look at how fast something like the Augury Rock exploit was fixed: if need be, patches can most certainly come out fast.

2 days, give or take a couple hours. That is how long it took them to notice, fix, and implement a patch to an obvious and serious bug in the game. That is a far cry from the 10 minutes (or two hours, it depends on which day of the week) someone else is saying.

Lets look at a very simplified process of changing just one variable in the game. Lets just say the amount of faction you get for a kill is going to be changed. At the moment it is 2 (I think). First you have to have a meeting to decide if this is the right course of action, the possible outcomes of changing it, deciding the team who is going to work on it, ect ect. If anyone has ever been to a business meeting for any large corporation, they know this could take all morning in itself. Then the team has to pull out the documentation and go through it finding out exactly where it was implemented in the code, and the exact variable that needs to be changed. Lets assume you have the same team that incorporated faction in the first place (very lucky you are then) to speed up this process. Lets also assume that it is exactly that, changing one variable in the class named faction for simplicity's sake. You go into the code and change that variable. You compile the code, and for more simplicity, you have very good programmers who made no mistakes in this entire process. Now you have to upload it to your test servers and test every instance where that variable came up (ie tombs, GvG, all of the arenas). Assuming no errors you now have to upload it to the live servers and you now get 5 faction a kill instead of 2.

That is a perfect world scenario. That is an entire 8-12 hour day, with multiple people involved, just to change a single variable. We won't even go over how extremely cost inefficient that is.

But hey, Guild-Hall can do it in 10 minutes. You have to wonder why he isn't making 6 figures working for NCSoft as a Lead Designer.

Silmor · Aug 03, 2005, 07:55 PM // 19:55

He's stating that the actual programming work will take 2 hours, and if we do indeed assume that it requires rewriting a single initialisation value (no half-decent programmer would ever hardcode such a value inside a faction class, if ArenaNet programmers do that they certainly have bigger problems than dissatisfied PvP'ers), it could even take as little as 10 minutes, granting some time for a server reboot incase such an update could not be streamed.

Yes, taking the decision to do this takes time - it requires said meetings, analysis of how it will affect play across the entire userbase, not just the ones requesting this change. But ArenaNet was informed that faction was an insufficient measure the moment the alpha testers were presented with it, so we can assume a significant portion of preliminary analysis and discussions have currently already taken place. Alpha testers are there to test new devices and give their opinions on it, and considering the eventual faction points update that was released, their efforts don't seem to have been taken very seriously.

Sagius, I will respect the request of the OP and avoid flaming you.

Guild-Hall Messenger · Aug 03, 2005, 08:35 PM // 20:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silmor

He's stating that the actual programming work will take 2 hours, and if we do indeed assume that it requires rewriting a single initialisation value (no half-decent programmer would ever hardcode such a value inside a faction class, if ArenaNet programmers do that they certainly have bigger problems than dissatisfied PvP'ers), it could even take as little as 10 minutes, granting some time for a server reboot incase such an update could not be streamed.

Yes, taking the decision to do this takes time - it requires said meetings, analysis of how it will affect play across the entire userbase, not just the ones requesting this change. But ArenaNet was informed that faction was an insufficient measure the moment the alpha testers were presented with it, so we can assume a significant portion of preliminary analysis and discussions have currently already taken place. Alpha testers are there to test new devices and give their opinions on it, and considering the eventual faction points update that was released, their efforts don't seem to have been taken very seriously.

Sagius, I will respect the request of the OP and avoid flaming you.

yeah I agree, they do read alpha tester and general player feedback... but they will also not take it serious and brush it off for a multitude of false reasons :\ You can hear this echoed in alex's post on the front page